"Gade l": yon entèvyou ak Anna Starobinets

Sikoloji: Poukisa doktè Larisi te reyaji yon fason konsa pou kesyon sou avòtman? Èske tout klinik pa fè sa nan peyi nou an? Oswa èske avòtman an reta ilegal? Ki rezon ki fè yon relasyon etranj konsa?

Anna Starobinets: Nan Larisi, sèlman klinik espesyalize yo angaje nan sispann gwosès pou rezon medikal nan tèm an reta. Natirèlman, sa a se legal, men se sèlman nan kote ki entèdi deziyen. Pou egzanp, nan lopital la menm maladi enfeksyon sou Sokolina Gora, ki se konsa renmen fè pè fanm ansent nan klinik prenatal.

Di orevwa nan yon timoun: istwa a nan Anna Starobinets

Yon fanm ki fè fas ak nesesite pou mete fen nan yon gwosès nan yon dat pita pa gen opòtinite pou yo chwazi yon enstitisyon medikal ki kostim li. Olye de sa, chwa a se nòmalman pa plis pase de kote espesyalize.

As for the reaction of doctors: it is connected with the fact that in Russia there is absolutely no moral and ethical protocol for working with such women. That is, roughly speaking, subconsciously any doctor — whether ours or German — feels a desire to distance himself from such a situation. None of the doctors want to take delivery of a dead fetus. And none of the women do not want to give birth to a dead child.

Se jis ke fanm gen yon bezwen konsa. Ak pou doktè ki gen chans pou yo travay nan enstalasyon ki pa fè fas ak entèripsyon (ki se, vas majorite nan doktè), pa gen okenn bezwen sa yo. Sa yo di fanm ak soulajman ak yon sèten kantite degou, san yo pa filtre mo ak entonasyon ditou. Paske pa gen okenn pwotokòl etik.

Isit la li ta dwe tou remake ke moun ki pafwa, jan li te tounen soti, doktè yo pa menm okouran ke nan klinik yo gen toujou posiblite pou yon entèripsyon sa yo. Pou egzanp, nan sant la Moskou. Kulakov, yo te di mwen ke "yo pa fè fas ak bagay sa yo." Jis yè, administrasyon sant sa a te kontakte mwen e yo te enfòme ke an 2012 yo te toujou fè bagay sa yo.

Sepandan, kontrèman ak Almay, kote yo bati yon sistèm pou ede yon pasyan nan yon sitiyasyon kriz ak chak anplwaye gen yon pwotokòl klè nan aksyon nan yon ka konsa, nou pa gen yon sistèm konsa. Se poutèt sa, yon doktè ultrason espesyalize nan patoloji gwosès ka byen pa konnen ke klinik li a angaje nan revokasyon gwosès patolojik sa yo, ak siperyè li yo konvenki ke li pa bezwen konnen sou li, paske jaden pwofesyonèl li se ultrason.

Petèt gen direktiv tasit pou dekouraje fanm yo sispann yon gwosès yo nan lòd yo ogmante pousantaj nesans la?

Oh no. Against. In this situation, a Russian woman experiences incredible psychological pressure from doctors, she is actually forced to have an abortion. Many women told me about this, and one of them shares this experience in my book — in its second, journalistic, part. She tried to insist on her right to report a pregnancy with a lethal pathology of the fetus, give birth to a child in the presence of her husband, say goodbye and bury. As a result, she gave birth at home, with a huge risk to her life and, as it were, outside the law.

Nan Almay, menm nan yon sitiyasyon ak yon timoun ki pa solid, pou nou pa mansyone yon timoun ki gen menm sendwòm Down, yon fanm toujou bay chwa pou yo rapòte yon gwosès konsa oswa mete fen nan li. Nan ka Down, yo ofri li tou vizite fanmi kote timoun ki gen yon sendwòm konsa grandi, epi yo tou enfòme ke gen moun ki vle adopte yon timoun konsa.

Ak nan ka defo enkonpatib ak lavi, yo di fanm Alman an ke gwosès li pral fèt tankou nenpòt lòt gwosès, epi apre li fin akouche, li ak fanmi li yo pral bay yon pawas separe ak opòtinite pou yo di orevwa nan ti bebe a. la. Epi tou, sou demann li, yo rele yon prèt.

In Russia, a woman does not have a choice. Nobody wants a pregnancy like this. She is invited to go through «one step at a time» for an abortion. Without family and priests. Moreover, even in the case of non-lethal, but severe pathologies, the model of behavior of doctors is usually the same: «Urgently go for an interruption, then you will give birth to a healthy one.»

Poukisa ou deside ale nan Almay?

Mwen te vle ale nan nenpòt peyi kote revokasyon an reta yo fèt nan yon fason imen ak sivilize. Anplis, li te enpòtan pou mwen ke mwen te gen zanmi oswa fanmi nan peyi sa a. Se poutèt sa, chwa a te nan fen a soti nan kat peyi: Lafrans, Ongri, Almay ak pèp Izrayèl la.

An Frans ak Ongri yo te refize m, paske. dapre lwa yo, avòtman an reta pa ka fèt sou touris san yon pèmi rezidans oswa sitwayènte. Nan pèp Izrayèl la, yo te pare pou aksepte m ', men yo te avèti ke tep biwokratik wouj la ta dire omwen yon mwa. Nan klinik la Berlin Charité yo te di ke yo pa gen okenn restriksyon pou etranje, e ke tout bagay pral fèt rapid ak imen. Se konsa, nou te ale la.

Don’t you think that for some women it is much easier to survive the loss of a «fetus» and not a «baby»? And that parting, funerals, talking about a dead child, correspond to a certain mentality and are not suitable for everyone here. Do you think this practice will take root in our country? And does it really help women relieve themselves of guilt after such an experience?

Now it doesn’t seem to. After the experience I had in Germany. Initially, I proceeded from exactly the same social attitudes that practically everything in our country comes from: that in no case should you look at a dead baby, otherwise he will then appear in nightmares all his life. That you should not bury him, because «why do you need such a young, children’s grave.»

But about the terminological, let’s say, acute angle — «fetus» or «baby» — I stumbled immediately. Not even a sharp corner, but rather a sharp spike or nail. It is very painful to hear when your child, although unborn, but absolutely real for you, moving in you, is called a fetus. Like he’s some kind of pumpkin or lemon. It doesn’t comfort, it hurts.

As for the rest — for example, the answer to the question, whether to look at it after the birth or not — my position changed from minus to plus after the birth itself. And I am very grateful to the German doctors for the fact that throughout the day they gently but persistently offered me to “look at him”, reminded me that I still have such an opportunity. There is no mentality. There are universal human reactions. In Germany, they were studied by professionals — psychologists, doctors — and made part of statistics. But we have not studied them and proceed from antediluvian grandmother’s conjectures.

Yes, it is easier for a woman if she said goodbye to the child, thus expressing respect and love for the person who was and who is gone. To a very small — but human. Not for pumpkin. Yes, it’s worse for a woman if she turned away, didn’t look, didn’t say goodbye, left “as soon as possible to forget.” She feels guilty. She does not find peace. That’s when she gets nightmares. In Germany, I talked a lot about this topic with specialists who work with women who have lost a pregnancy or a newborn baby. Please note that these losses are not divided into pumpkins and non-pumpkins. The approach is the same.

Pou ki rezon yon fanm nan Larisi ka refize yon avòtman? Si sa a se dapre endikasyon, Lè sa a, se operasyon an enkli nan asirans la oswa ou pa?

Yo ka refize sèlman si pa gen okenn endikasyon medikal oswa sosyal, men se sèlman yon dezi. Men, anjeneral fanm ki pa gen endikasyon sa yo nan dezyèm trimès la epi yo pa gen dezi a fè sa. Yo swa vle yon ti bebe, oswa si yo pa fè sa, yo te deja fè yon avòtman anvan 12 semèn. Ak repons lan se wi, pwosedi a entèwonp gratis. Men, sèlman nan kote espesyalize. Epi, nan kou, san yo pa yon chanm orevwa.

Ki sa ki te frape ou pi plis sou kòmantè sa yo grenpe sou fowòm ak medya sosyal ke ou te ekri sou (ou konpare yo ak rat nan sousòl la)?

I was struck by the total absence of a culture of empathy, a culture of sympathy. That is, in fact, there is no «ethical protocol» at all levels. Neither doctors nor patients have it. It simply does not exist in society.

Since we are Puritans, for the sin of copulation, a dirty woman is entitled to suffering — from sexual infections to childbirth. And since we are Sparta, we must go through these sufferings without even uttering a word. Hence the classic remark of a midwife at childbirth: “I liked it under a peasant — now don’t yell.” Screams and tears are for the weak. And there are more genetic mutations.

An embryo with a mutation is a culling, a spoiled fetus. The woman who wears it is of poor quality. Spartans don’t like them. She is not supposed to have sympathy, but a harsh rebuke and an abortion. Because we are strict, but fair: do not whine, shame on you, wipe your snot, lead the right way of life — and you will give birth to another, healthy one.

Ki konsèy ou ta bay fanm ki te oblije sispann yon gwosès oswa ki te fè eksperyans yon foskouch? Ki jan yo siviv li? Se konsa, yo pa blame tèt ou epi yo pa tonbe nan yon depresyon gwo twou san fon?

Here, of course, it is most logical to advise you to seek help from a professional psychologist. But, as I said a little higher, it is very difficult to find it. Not to mention that this pleasure is expensive. In the second part of the book “Look at him”, I talk exactly on this topic — how to survive — with Christine Klapp, MD, head physician of the Charité-Virchow obstetrics clinic in Berlin, which specializes in late pregnancy terminations, and performs not only gynecological, but and psychological counseling for their patients and their partners. Dr. Klapp gives a lot of interesting advice.

For example, she is convinced that a man needs to be included in the “mourning process”, but it should be borne in mind that he recovers faster after the loss of a child, and also has difficulty enduring round-the-clock mourning. However, you can easily arrange with him to devote to a lost child, say, a couple of hours a week. A man is capable of talking during these two hours only on this topic — and he will do it honestly and sincerely. Thus, the couple will not be separated.

Men, sa a se tout pou nou, nan kou, yon moso nan yon fason konplètman etranje sosyal ak fanmi nan lavi. Nan fason nou an, mwen konseye fanm yo koute premye tout kè yo: si kè a poko pare pou "bliye ak viv sou", Lè sa a, li pa nesesè. Ou gen dwa fè lapenn, kèlkeswa sa lòt moun panse sou li.

Unfortunately, we do not have professional psychological support groups at maternity hospitals, however, in my opinion, it is better to share experiences with non-professional groups than not to share at all. For example, on Facebook (an extremist organization banned in Russia) for some time now, sorry for the tautology, there is a closed group “Heart is open”. There is quite adequate moderation, which screens out trolls and boors (which is rare for our social networks), and there are many women who have experienced or are experiencing loss.

Èske ou panse ke desizyon pou kenbe yon timoun se sèlman desizyon yon fanm? E pa de patnè? Apre yo tout, ti fi souvan mete fen nan gwosès yo sou demann nan zanmi yo, mari. Ou panse gason gen dwa pou sa? Ki jan yo trete sa nan lòt peyi?

Of course, a man does not have the legal right to demand that a woman have an abortion. A woman can resist the pressure and refuse. And can succumb — and agree. It is clear that a man in any country is capable of exerting psychological pressure on a woman. The difference between conditional Germany and Russia in this regard is two things.

Premyèman, li se diferans ki genyen nan edikasyon ak kòd kiltirèl. Lwès Ewopeyen yo anseye depi nan anfans pwoteje limit pèsonèl yo ak respekte lòt moun. Yo trè mefyan de nenpòt manipilasyon ak presyon sikolojik.

Secondly, the difference in social guarantees. Roughly speaking, a Western woman, even if she does not work, but is entirely dependent on her man (which is extremely rare), has a kind of “safety cushion” in case she is left alone with a child. She can be sure that she will receive social benefits, on which one can really live, albeit not very luxuriously, deductions from the salary of the father of the child, as well as other bonuses for a person in a crisis situation — from a psychologist to a social worker.

Malerezman, yon fanm Ris se pi vilnerab nan yon sitiyasyon kote patnè a pa vle yon timoun, men li fè sa.

Desizyon final la, nan kou, rete ak fanm nan. Sepandan, nan ka yon chwa "pro-lavi", li dwe konnen ke li ap pran pi plis responsablite pase yon fanm Alman kondisyonèl, ke li pral gen pratikman pa gen okenn kousen sosyal, ak manje, si genyen, se pito ridikil. .

Kòm pou aspè legal la: Doktè Alman te di m 'ke si li rive mete fen nan yon gwosès, di, paske nan Sendwòm Dawonn, yo gen enstriksyon yo ak anpil atansyon kontwole koup la. Epi, si gen yon sispèk ke yon fanm deside fè yon avòtman anba presyon nan men patnè li, yo imedyatman reponn, pran aksyon, envite yon sikològ, eksplike fanm nan ki benefis sosyal li ak pitit ki poko fèt yo gen dwa si li se. fèt. Nan yon mo, yo fè tout sa ki posib pou fè li soti nan presyon sa a epi ba li opòtinite pou pran yon desizyon endepandan.

Ki kote ou fè pitit? Nan Larisi? Epi èske nesans yo te ede yo fè fas ak chòk la?

The eldest daughter Sasha was already there when I lost the child. I gave birth to her in Russia, in the Lyubertsy maternity hospital, in 2004. She gave birth for a fee, «under the contract.» My girlfriend and my ex-partner were present at the birth (Sasha Sr., the father of Sasha Jr., could not be present, he then lived in Latvia and everything was, as they say now, “difficult”), during the contractions we were provided with a special ward with shower and a big rubber ball.

Tout bagay sa yo te trè bèl ak liberal, sèl salitasyon ki soti nan sot pase Sovyetik la se te yon vye dam netwayaj ki gen yon bokit ak yon mop, ki de fwa te kraze nan idil sa a nou an, ki te lave atè a anba nou ak trankilman bougonnen pou tèt li anba souf li. : “Gade sa yo envante! Moun nòmal akouche kouche.

I didn’t have epidural anesthesia during childbirth, because, supposedly, it’s bad for the heart (later, a doctor I knew told me that just at that time in the Lyubertsy house something was wrong with anesthesia — what exactly was “not right”, I do not know). When my daughter was born, the doctor tried to slip a pair of scissors into my ex-boyfriend and said, «Daddy’s supposed to cut the umbilical cord.» He fell into a stupor, but my friend saved the situation — she took the scissors from him and cut something there herself. After that, we were given a family room, where all four of us — including a newborn — and spent the night. In general, the impression was good.

Mwen te fè pi piti pitit gason mwen an, Leva, nan Letoni, nan bèl lopital matènite Jurmala, ak yon epidural, ak mari mwen renmen anpil. Yo dekri nesans sa yo nan fen liv Gade li a. Epi, nan kou, nesans yon pitit gason te ede m anpil.

There is such a thing as «empty hands». When you are expecting a child, but for some reason you lose it, you feel with your soul and body around the clock that your hands are empty, that they do not have what should be there — your baby. The son filled this void with himself, purely physically. But the one before him, I will never forget. And I don’t want to forget.